Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

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Alter-Fox
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby Alter-Fox » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:44 am

Maybe because level 18 is very green and uses lots of alien2 textures and level 22 is surprisingly brown and full of alien1/deserty textures?
Apart from that, most of the levels themselves use the same themes as the D2 Counterstrike levels, and the palettes were based around making the textures for that theme look good, so you can see why they had been switched. Simply because the levels were also out of theme.

I think DFW wanted to mix things up by that point in the mission because it starts to feel too much like D2 Counterstrike -- also it's playing with the player's expectations, which is an incredibly powerful (not to mention fun) technique for level, mission, or even just general story design.
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby Alter-Fox » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:11 am

KakHome wrote:P.S. When I think about it really deeply, I could actually say it's surprising that the Baloris desert theme is used some between Levels 17 and 20, including basically the whole of 17 and 20, since these four levels (the Facility unit) are represented by story to be set in a tropical environment - which is quite the opposite of desert.


There are plenty of tropical deserts, it's not impossible or opposite at all. In fact, the stereotypical desert in any kind of fiction is a tropical desert. What is absolutely semantically, definitively, derivatively, and grammatically impossible and thus ridiculous is a tropical planet.

Your last comment... is quite possible, but you'd have to ask her. I mean, you'd have to ask her about everything in this thread to know for sure but what I said makes sense to me. What also makes sense to me is that she would keep the palettes the same as D2 Counterstrike for the other levels that don't follow a "theme" just because it was the simplest thing to do. And in the case of level 19, it had far more desert than alien textures (I have replayed that level relatively recently, it's still one of my favourite singleplayer maps in Descent).

Oh, there is the fact that I've heard DFW doesn't consider the Baloris Prime theme to be an alien desert. Unlike Parallax software apparently. But look who's talking about this. I'm far more quirky than that.
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby darkflamewolf » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:17 am

:)
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby Alter-Fox » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:18 am

Hello!
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby Alter-Fox » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:39 am

KakHome wrote:Which is better in your view - Luke's version (i.e. Entropy 2 Level 5) or DFW's version (Level 19) - or are both forms of that level in your favorites list?
Oh...and is your name Wazzazzle on Youtube? (Hint to why I asked: look at the comments in DFW's video for the level.)


I like DFW's version because it feels more organic and I can actually solve it (which is always a plus, eh?).
And my name is wazzazzle in a lot of places, but you're not supposed to capitalize it. Even if I did. You're supposed to just know, because I told you.
My avatar might have also tipped you off.

darkflamewolf wrote:
:)
I don't get it...hint please? (You can do a message if you'd like.)


I think that was in response to me making a little fun of her while she happened to be watching, knowing I didn't know she was watching, not to you.
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby Alter-Fox » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:09 pm

I only said that I can't solve it. There's a big difference. You shouldn't assume what people said by what you think they meant, it just makes an ass out of you and me :P.

TBH I'm not exactly a fan of Descent's (and for that matter Doom's) style of puzzles because they don't make any logical sense, it's just like (Dilbert boss face) "Shoot this control panel! It did something! Now find out what it did! Now find the next control panel which looks exactly the same and also gives you no indication of what it does before you shoot it! Now do this again! And again!"
I had to look up a ton of video walkthroughs to get through Doom 2 because I couldn't figure out what a switch did, or sometimes even what was a switch. I don't have this problem with games like Half-Life 2 or Doom 3, because the puzzles make logical sense -- thus they are easy to solve if you have a mind.

Basically, I think puzzles should mainly test your intelligence, not your luck.
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby Alter-Fox » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:45 pm

Oh come on, don't give me that "not a true fan" $#@!. We don't do that here. Because making that argument is generally a lame excuse for not being able to make a better argument. In my book it's tantamount to saying "you're right, but I don't want to admit it" :P.

Just because Descent is my favourite game doesn't mean I think it's perfect. That's why I got into D2X-XL in the first place.
I wouldn't have a problem with non-standard objectives if there were better ways to create them in Descent. D2X-XL actually gives you some ways to do it more gracefully if you're making a level specifically for D2X-XL, but I haven't seen it done anywhere except for Pumo Mines yet -- and even the demo for PM still falls into this trap occasionally. But there's a reason that when I build levels, I stick to the standard objectives.
And I never said I didn't like Entropy 2 or Obsidian or EAF2 (OK I did say I didn't like EAF2, but it wasn't for that reason :P). They're still some of the best-looking missions I've ever played for Descent. They're just incredibly frustrating to get through without having a walkthrough in front of you the whole time. And I do count that against them, but that doesn't mean they don't still score generally positive with me.
You're assuming things again, but this time you're making an ass out of you and not me.
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby Alter-Fox » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:29 pm

I never said it was a bad mechanic. I only said that it tends to be used badly in missions like that.
Of course I enjoyed those missions, one badly used mechanic doesn't automatically make the whole thing crap.

Like Karx said recently, think, and then post.

For the record I enjoy when it's used to make stupidly hard-to-find secrets because I like not finding everything on the first time through the levels. Exploring and finding secrets is one of the best parts of any game and the more absurdly, nonsensically hard to get they are the more satisfying it is when you finally find a walkthrough. If they're logically, sensibly hidden you find them all the first time through and then you never replay the mission again. This is why I like DFW's levels so much.
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby Alter-Fox » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:33 pm

There are too many I really like for me to rank them. That's why I talk more about the D2X-XL ones.
The only thing I could definitively say that would be interesting to you is that I like Entropy 1 more than Entropy 2 -- it has nothing to do with objectives, I just like the music better (it's more definitive "Luke" instead of the Entropy 2 music which to me sounds more like Daft Punk -- not that that's a bad thing :) ) and I think the visual style is cooler.
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby Alter-Fox » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:23 pm

Again, it's hard to decide because they're all good.
All I know is that Pumo Mines will take first place, even if it is just a demo.
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby Alter-Fox » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:45 pm

I'd recommend trying Entropy 2, I just wouldn't recommend finishing it if you're having trouble. For me it just wasn't worth the frustration.
For me it was this trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HypeBacklash
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby Alter-Fox » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:24 am

Hype backlash = everyone tells you something is so good and then you actually try it and discover you don't like it so much because your expectations were set too high from being told it was awesome so often. It doesn't need to reference Descent, that would be ridiculously specific and obsessive even for TVtropes -- besides it's definitely an opinion based trope.

Please think before you say something like that next time. If it doesn't make sense to you, try to consider it in other ways which might be relevant to how it is presented to you. I seriously think I could diagnose you over the internet if that was a valid method of diagnosis, I'd only need to google the DSM-IV's definition to be certain of what type.
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby darkflamewolf » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:48 pm

As for stupid hard, non- sensiscal puzzles, I have to say level 21 of Lost Levels takes the cake. Its way too vague and complex for anyone to sort out without hints. So for that level, bad on me. I got a lot better at not abusing the player so much with that stuff after Lost Levels.
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby Sirius » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:30 pm

There was a time when level designers were pretty much trying to outdo each other at "how complicated can you get without getting impossible". My silliest was probably in level 4 of Apocalyptic Factor unless I'm forgetting something.
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Re: Lost Levels 18 and 22 palette swap?

Postby Alter-Fox » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:58 pm

Yeah, it took Xaihyv and I ages to figure that out. In co-op. It was pretty boring when we were stuck in the same place for several nights (if I'm remembering correctly, I may be confusing nights with hours, but still...).
And then it turned out we weren't doing it the right way, so we still didn't know how to do it in singleplayer :lolol: .
At least I made a good choice of music to listen to while we played that level so that neither of us was completely not enjoying it :P.

But I think some of the D3 level designers were stuck in that craze too, seriously, there were a few points that are pretty impossible to figure out without a guide. But at least most of those parts were optional (I say most, not all). Mercenary did a little bit better, which is good because there wasn't a strategy guide for it (at least not official, Moon's was still pretty good). But one of the worst-offending levels of all time (second to lost levels 21 :D) was still in Mercenary.
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