(SDL)Devil

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karx11erx
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(SDL)Devil

Postby karx11erx » Sun May 13, 2012 11:07 pm

Since SDLDevil promises to work better on Windows, I thought I'd try the latest version. It was just awful. Even if ignoring the ugliness, the interface is a pain in the neck. You have to click a hell of a lot just to get a hog file open - and instead of loading a level from it, I deleted it. I really don't mean to put anybody down because I am maintaining a 'competing' program, and I was honestly curious at what Devil had to offer, but after that experience I cannot understand why people would do this program to themselves. :no:
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Hawkins » Mon May 14, 2012 12:29 am

To be honest DLE is a complementary rather than a competing program. Even if both are autonomous in matters of functionality, they still need each other in terms of taste and preference. : ) I imagine pro builders using both, since Devil was popular, even before SDLDevil.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Alter-Fox » Mon May 14, 2012 12:34 am

I'm pretty sure the original Devil was just as bad, since all SDLDevil is trying to do is replicate it :P.
People like what they're used to no matter how awful it is to those unused to it. Personally I'm used to DLE-XP and I think DLE-XP is great (like I've said so many times before). But maybe that's more because when I started building levels the only viable options for me were the DMB2 demo or DLE-XP. Hmm... should I mention how impressed I was with DLE-XP after trying in vain for a month to figure out DMB2's demo? And do I really need to clarify which one of those two is better? Maybe I could mention instead how I think the indoor half of D3's engine is really only different in one way from D1 and D2's engine.
I took a look at SDLDevil recently, and I had the exact same impression as Karx.

But ya know, each to his own. That's the really confusing and not so obvious point to this post.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby karx11erx » Mon May 14, 2012 12:47 am

I understand perfectly well that this is a matter of being used to something and of taste. But taking the recent DLE-XP enhancements into account, sticking with Devil looks like preferring a horse cart over a nice new station wagon just because you are so used to sitting on hard wooden benches and to brushing and feeding your horse and can't treat yourself to learning how to drive a car.

This makes me think of die hard Devil users as the Amish people of the Descent community. :P

Hawkins, you should be able to run DLE-XP on Linux using WINE, and as far as OS X goes I tend to think that there is no OS X build of Devil around.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby blarget# » Mon May 14, 2012 2:39 am

I'm honestly offended Diedel. Just because you don't know the work flow of a program, does not mean its bad. And calling it a horse cart does not make it any better. I know you are trying to be humorous, but you're not funny.

This is coming from a Devil pro: you don't know what you are saying >.>. :rage:
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Alter-Fox » Mon May 14, 2012 3:58 am

Or are you so used to it, that it's you who doesn't know what you're saying.
j/k :P

But now the point is that arguments of opinions cannot be won.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Sirius » Mon May 14, 2012 7:07 am

I was never impressed by Devil either... apparently there are some things people use it in preference to DLE-XP, but I never figured out what or why. It mostly felt like using GIMP if Photoshop were already free to me.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby karx11erx » Mon May 14, 2012 7:44 am

blarget# wrote:I'm honestly offended Diedel. Just because you don't know the work flow of a program, does not mean its bad. And calling it a horse cart does not make it any better. I know you are trying to be humorous, but you're not funny.

This is coming from a Devil pro: you don't know what you are saying >.>. :rage:

You are offended because I am saying something against a piece of software?

:crazy:

I have explained why I don't like it, and I am a computer professional for over 25 years (I would say "when you were still running around a christmas tree with a rattle in your hand", but this would not even be true - it was before you had even been conceived).

The Devil interface is a pain in the neck. It is inflexible, uncomfortable, ugly, and requires an excessive amount of user interaction to achieve something and is very unintuitive. I couldn't even get the hog manager to load a level directly out of the hog file (not saying it can't, but it isn't obvious how to do it). The only thing it did was to help me to screw up a level so quickly that I didn't even get to try its editing functions.

But no problem, you keep hitting your hand with a hammer if feeling a bit of pain makes you feel more "pro".

:lolol:
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Alter-Fox » Mon May 14, 2012 12:17 pm

I think the issue is that this really is a matter of opinion and what one is used to, and it does get pretty inflamatory when someone tries to make themselves out to be an authority on opinion. The good salesman knows to make his pitch and then let the customer decide what he wants -- the salesman knows how far to take it and how far would be a bad idea that would only make the customer less likely to choose him (yes, some commercials are not good salesmen). I think you should both drop it because there's only one other way this can end. And before Blarget accuses me of taking Karx's side (or vice versa) I'm not trying to take anyone's side because that's kind of the point here.

To be fair Karx, your earlier analogy was a pretty bad one. It overly simplifies the idea of software preferences.

Just like the mind of the musician sees music so much differently from the average Joe (I have trouble understanding why people like bands whose members obviously haven't bothered to learn how to use a simple soundboard, or they bought an awesome classic synthesizer and then never bothered to put the time in and figure out how to program it) so the mind of the programmer sees software differently. It's very understandable that your standards for the programs you use are going to be higher than the average person (and when nothing meets your standards then you can always create something that does yourself). But the thing here to remember with this me-analogy is that underneath all the bad mixing and cheezy Moog presets, the reason people like the band is that there is real musical talent there (no matter how lazy the band is otherwise :P). Underneath everything you've said about SDLDevil, it is a very faithful remake of one of the most popular Descent editors out there. Of course there are people who want to use it, no matter how flawed it appears to those of us who don't.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby karx11erx » Mon May 14, 2012 12:50 pm

I have tried the program, and its ergonomy is 20 years back, like the entire program. It's the typical case of people taking it personal that something they like is being criticized. My philosophy however is that if you aren't willing to confront yourself with the truth, you will never get better (or get better tools).

In DLE-XP, you open the file selector, browse to a hog file, load it, get all files presented in a list, chose one, and there you go. You can even load other levels from the same mission directly via the mission tool.

SDLDevil starts in its binary folder regardless of the mission folders you specified, first gives you an error message you have to click away, forces you to navigate to the mission folder, needs another mouse click to open the hog manager, and then you cannot directly load a level from the hog (at least I didn't see any control allowing me to do this). When clicking on the right arrow, the selected level gets deleted from the hog file instead of being moved or copied to the file system (which is what I had intuitively expected when seeing a box representing the hog file to the left and another box representing my file system to the right of the right arrow). That's when I gave up trying to even load a level with it. So as I said, I didn't even get to viewing and editing a level (which may have changed my attitude towards the program). If a program hinders me in such a way in my doing my intended work, and there's a way better and more modern alternative, why should I bother with it. And that's why I used the horse cart / station wagon comparison - to illustrate where Devil (imvho) is compared to DLE-XP.

This experience has nothing to do with opinion - it's based on hard usability facts.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Alter-Fox » Mon May 14, 2012 1:04 pm

The problem with the way you were stating your analogy originally was talking about a person who preferred a horse cart over a station wagon. It wasn't talking about the horse cart itself vs the station wagon. I guess you didn't mean it that way but that's how it came off to me and apparently Blarget:
But taking the recent DLE-XP enhancements into account, sticking with Devil looks like preferring a horse cart over a nice new station wagon just because you are so used to sitting on hard wooden benches and to brushing and feeding your horse and can't treat yourself to learning how to drive a car.


And to be a devil's advocate (the other kind of devil :P) horse carts don't burn gasoline and pollute the air. They leave horse poo but horse poo doesn't hurt the Earth because there's so many more things in nature that get rid of it. And of course you'd want to brush and feed your horse. Just like a dog lover wants to brush and feed their dog. The station wagon isn't "part of the family" in the same way that the horse is.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Hawkins » Mon May 14, 2012 1:06 pm

And these minor details karx are most-irrelevant. People see a way of building in Devil and overcome all these ergonomic flaws if it serves their purpose. A profound expert in Descent mission building nowadays, Pumo* can explain with solid documentation and a variance of points of views why Devil can be of such good use to certain ways of mission-building mentality. ;)

*sorry for citing twice bro :P

EDIT: let there be known that I prefer DMB2 over Devil any day. It's just that that's just me... (justs, thats, and mes :D)
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby karx11erx » Mon May 14, 2012 1:09 pm

DLE-XP certainly produces less pollution (in the form of end products of stress induced faster metabolic processes) than Devil does, and maybe also reduces your power bill because you're faster with it.

Apart from that I have seen Devil in use (I think Blarget demonstrated it to me), and that's why I wanted to try it myself. It just won't let me to, so what.

Anyway, feeling offended by a comparison as harmless as mine is ridiculous. Someone who does should probably do something about his attitude, imho.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby blarget# » Mon May 14, 2012 1:13 pm

I'm fine with you disagreeing with me, but changing my icon is going way too far. You say people should not get offended when people criticize what editor or tool they use, but you obviously are offended that anyone would use any editor other then your obviously "superior" one. You are a hypocrite. I guess people like Pumo are hurting there own mapping speed as well because he is using a horse cart as you say.

The fact is, I personally map 10 times faster in Devil then i do in Dle-xp. I love DLE-xp for everything else, but when it comes to straight geometry, Pumo and i will always go to devil 1st.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby karx11erx » Mon May 14, 2012 1:39 pm

Alter-Fox,

Two things:

#1 Don't reply to stuff that has been edited out.

#2 Don't try to smartass me by taking me literally in a way that is by no means smart.

You could prefer Devil over DLE-XP every day. I would not be offended. I would just like to know why, and probably improve DLE-XP to match Devil in that areas. My having a negative opinion about Devil is exactly that: An opinion. Not everybody can live with opinions he disagrees with though, as we can see here.


Blarget,

I wouldn't call you a hypocrite, but "humorless bigot" fits the bill quite well I think. Given what you have posted above you will have to live with the jester here for a while. :)

Interpreting my post the way you did is as wrong as it is suitable for you. Unless most people I usually don't have second thoughts when writing or saying something. This is apparently something so uncommon that people won't believe it. Well, that just reflects their nature, not mine. Learn to live with others having negative opinions about things you like.

Since you got a fitting response I will refrain from banning your for two weeks for insulting me.

As far as speed goes: It's all a matter of practise. I had btw offered you twice to give me feedback on DLE-XP's first person controls to help me improving them, but apparently you couldn't be bothered with that.


Hawkins,

what does Devil offer over DLE-XP now that DLE-XP has a 1st person editing mode, too?

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