(SDL)Devil

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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Aus-RED-5 » Tue May 15, 2012 12:46 am

blarget# wrote:I love DLE-xp for everything else, but when it comes to straight geometry, Pumo and i will always go to devil 1st.


Take your ball and go home then. :comfort: :lolol:


You don't see Pumo moaning about Diedel's comments..... Maybe it has something to do with Diedel's comments aren't offensive? Besides, Diedel isn't talking down the programmer. He's just expressing his personal views of the program that was built from 1990-something. The fact that it's being updated and yet not with some better layouts and so forth....
I see where he's coming from, and agree. Though I'm a DMB2 user by default. I find using DLE a bit of a challenge to use at times. Only because it has a different layout and a few different things or should I say advanced options compared to DMB2. ;)

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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Hawkins » Tue May 15, 2012 1:13 am

Well, let's just also bare in mind that SDLDevil is fresh work in progress. Priority has been given in making the program operational and usable to complete level building. No-ones to say how or if v66r will evolve the UI. One important factor is carrying and/or improving the Devil building mentality for those who adopt it.

@karx: Like I said, I agree in general, that Devil offers not much I can't do with DLE. Devil's corridor wizards does wonders though; one more reason I am hoping to improve DLE's curve generator. And other stuff Devil experts will know to pinpoint. For all the arguments portrayed here, I take their word for it. :)

While you are expressing your own criticism Diedel, I have to admit that I see a little bit of the aforementioned competition mentality in your comments, while I find the notion obsolete. Forgive me for repeating myself, but in the opensource software world, programs only benefit from each other, which means that if something is not useful in a program, it is simply not worth mentioning either, other than as a guide to improve said program. Forgive me if I see in the creation of this thread a sense of bringing competition forward, downing SDLDevil in favor of DLE-XP. I wish to reassure how unnecessary it is, in a place where your comments can be constructive instead of saying how fast you deleted the program. :P
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Weyrman » Tue May 15, 2012 2:33 am

Blarget#

I didn't see your icon as an insult to you. You like Devil so OWN it, wear it with pride and don't get to hung up over it. There are much bigger things in life.

Laugh, Live and program with the software of your choice, after all, everyone makes up their own mind and if you are benefitting the Descent community as a whole then really, who cares. :comfort:
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Sapphire Wolf » Tue May 15, 2012 4:08 am

I sometime use Devil for like cavernous or terrain touchups only. I wasn't fonded with Devil for level building, TBH.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby karx11erx » Tue May 15, 2012 5:48 am

Hawkins, currently the UI simply is what it has been for years. Putting any hopes in the future doesn't change that it has been a PITA until now (and still is), imo, ofc.

I just stumbled over this:

Hawkins wrote:And these minor details karx are most-irrelevant.

Minor details? Minor? You call it minor when you have to try for 10 minutes just to load a level for editing and in the end accidentally delete it because the UI has such a misleading structure?

Think over it.

What are the corridor wizards offering?

I could look into the source code, but Achim Stremplat's code is bit hard to follow (mostly because of the formatting, extremely short and non-descriptive identifiers in global names [both uv and 3D coordinates are simply vectors with the name 'x' :wallbash:) and some non-standard naming conventions, e.g. "SCALAR" instead of "DOTPRODUCT" or simply "DOT"), but from what I have seen he knew what he was doing math wise and his code is quite straight forward. The original DMB2 code structure looked worse to me (identifier names were chosen much much better though).

In 1995, C++ and design patterns were established already, and using that could have done wonders for him, too, but apart from that his code looked straight forward enough to me to be not too hard to follow once you have figured all the unintelligible identifier names. The worst design flaw imho is that he tried to stuff every data type into one "mother of elements" he simply called "node". Bleh. He really should've used C++ and some healthy design patterns instead of that, but well, afaik he was a university student at that time and probably still had to learn one thing or the other.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Pumo » Tue May 15, 2012 6:18 am

Oh my, I've seen my name (Pumo) a lot of times recently on several discussions scattered throughout the Descent community (either on the D2X-XL or the Rebirth forums, and even Facebook). :P

Image

:lolol:

But now goin' back to topic, I love Devil simply because I'm veeeery used to it since the late 90's and I'm pretty accustomed to work on it, and because of a few features here and there and most importantly, specially the 1st person view that prevented me to use DMB2/DLE-XP for several years already, as I hated its 3rd person view (although that changed recently, now that DLE features my beloved 1st person mode)...

...But honestly, I ALWAYS thought of Devil as a 'modest' piece of sotware with a very ugly and unintuitive interface, and lots of bugs since the first time I used it, and never liked that part of it, and the headaches it gave me were not very nice. :rant:

Nowadays, with the new Devil-like features of DLE (that has better interface with no doubts), I can confidently say I'm liking DLE each day more and more, but I'm pretty sure I won't quit using Devil, because I still love it
(perhaps in a 'masochist' way :mrgreen:),
Because I feel it almost like a part of me, level-editing wise (something pretty similar as what I feel when I play the Keyboard/Synth, etc.), as I've used since years already and yeap, I'm very fast on it, due to practice, and it has some sentinmental and nostalgic value.

So I can confidently say I will never stop to use Devil, even if it ACTUALLY IS a Horse Cart compared to DLE. :P
But I also must say that on recent days, I'm starting to really use DLE a lot, and it's starting to feel nice;
Of course, in 1st person mode (can't take 3rd person mode still :vomit: lol).

So in the end I suppose I will be using both programs almost in the same free and confident way I like, and one as much as the other.
(as DLE-XP learning curve and interface is better than that of Devil, so it won't take that much time to get used to it).
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby karx11erx » Tue May 15, 2012 6:26 am

At least you don't freak out because of my comparison. :sweat: :lol:

What I would like to know is where I could improve DLE-XP handling in 1st person mode to make it suit Devil users better. Geometry editing in Devil looked very simple and streamlined when demonstrated to me - I just couldn't try it myself so far because of the problems that made me start this thread.

What I like so much about DLE's 3rd person mode is that it always gives me an overview of the entirety of the level and allows me to see bigger parts I am working on as a whole, and I can very well imagine from that how the level would look from the inside. It also makes it easier for me to work on bigger parts (e.g. with block commands).

From blarget's Devil demonstration I had the impression that you also need to zoom out of the level in Devil to do certain things, and then it looks pretty much like DLE's 3rd person view - just the navigation is slighty different.

Edit:

I have finally managed to open a level with Devil by first exporting it from the mission file ... :no:

SDLDevil may be able to handle bigger screen resolutions and wide screen formats, but the edit window inside of it doesn't ... sure, it's a W.I.P. This time I accidentally deleted a segment from the level, and since there seems to be no undo function in Devil that tired me of trying it out more. In my current slight mood to mock I feel tempted to ask what else I did expect from a program called "DEVIL" ... :roll:

Nah, I will rather improve DLE-XP further where it needs improvement, and will have no problems integrating good stuff from Devil (if a Devil user explains it to me).

Would it be too obvious if I renamed DLE to DLA (Descent Level Angel)? :mrgreen:

I will let a picture speak for itself. Does anybody know this level?

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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Sirius » Tue May 15, 2012 8:15 am

@ Sapphire Wolf: DLE-XP allows you to manipulate vertices via drag-drop if you find it useful - for me this is an exceptionally powerful way of making irregular cavernous areas how I want them. I forgot about this feature for a long time but I've gotten a lot of use out of it in recent years.

On 3rd-person vs 1st-person: Definitely a matter of taste - of course I have always preferred third person because it gives me a broader view. However it does come with the disadvantage that you need to learn the relationship between the numerical cube size and what it's going to feel like in-game before you stop making rooms too big or small. It's also not the thing that comes most naturally to a Descent/FPS player. However, basically every other modern editor (professional ones and mapping tools for modern games) also works in third-person, so it's a good thing to get used to if you want to do something other than Descent some day.

On subsequent improvements to Devil: Possibly something to encourage, but then again I'm not sure whether it's worth it - because most people that want to use it already know it, and know the controls.

On DLE-XP nomenclature: I do find the "XP" bit a little anachronistic these days, but ah well. :)

Oh, and: hard to believe that's still Descent up there.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby karx11erx » Tue May 15, 2012 9:00 am

Sirius wrote:On DLE-XP nomenclature: I do find the "XP" bit a little anachronistic these days, but ah well. :)

Me too! Do you have any suggestions?
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Hawkins » Tue May 15, 2012 10:02 am

Just DLE for starters... Maybe DLE 2 when all big changes are wrapped up.

Like I said again, I really don't like Devil as a descent mission building program. DLE kicks *ss. All I am syaing is bickering about it is unnecessary. Let the project roll and see what happens. No matter how bad it is (Devil), it is approved by the level building community. From the reception SDLDevil received, I believe it has much to say for many users. For me, it says nothing. Except for the fancy corridor wizard it has, which betters DMB2's in both implementation and properties. For example, the lash out feature of curved corridors (don't necessarily need two ends), expanding corridor from multiple faces for a composite multi-cube-line curved corridor e.t.c. And of cource as far as implementation goes... I won't go into that, I wanna examine the math under both implementations straightforwardly.

My point: see me here, praising DLE, and depicting personal preference over Devil? In the end, going back to the OP, it's not the criticism itself but the way it's done and perhaps the motivation behind it (competition in a domain where it's obsolete) that concern me, and perhaps this is the reason it generated those user reactions in the first place. Consider what the developer would think reading all this, especially the first post, considering again that it's a FOSS project, and how this could alternatively be more constructive of a criticism, without the unnecessary erm... "emotional comments". Someone who can always fish out the essence in one's words yeah, but why generate this negativity if it's only just for feedback towards the program?

I have started repeating my self badly, and I think I'll stop here regarding the thread itself; all other comments will be about the programs themselves.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby karx11erx » Tue May 15, 2012 11:22 am

Know what people? Get back to firm ground. All I was issuing was my personal opinion. Good arguments welcome. But don't make a big deal out of it when it is none. ;)

Devil must have something to it, and I would like to have that in DLE too, simply because DLE is my editor of choice which I would like to see working as good as possible. Propositions how to improve DLE are always welcome, particularly in the 1st person editing realm.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby blarget# » Tue May 15, 2012 1:15 pm

I've been waiting to hear you say that diedel. Thank you. Now. I am not mad anymore. I will post a workflow video to show you more of devil when I get home so I can help improve 1st person mode. (from my windows phone 7)

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88E0fbE2OOA
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby karx11erx » Tue May 15, 2012 2:15 pm

Hey blarget.

:lolol:

Don't get mad if people poke a bit fun on you.

If you give me a cool Devil logo, I will use it instead of the Jester and give you the Devil pro rank here. ;)

A video isn't very helpful. I need explanations on how Devil makes it easy to select segments, sides, lines, vertices and moving them around.
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Alter-Fox » Tue May 15, 2012 3:18 pm

What about this guy's artwork
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Re: (SDL)Devil

Postby Sirius » Tue May 15, 2012 3:43 pm

I'm not sure the Devil logo is supposed to be actually ... you know ... a devil :lol:

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