Year of the Tiger

All about modding, mapping and modeling for D2X-XL

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karx11erx
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby karx11erx » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:37 pm

Yeah, Sirius knows both the Kung and the Fu of Descent level design. :thumb:
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby Sirius » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:22 pm

Oh, I still need to do the 0 strength thing, maybe that's the ticket...

Thanks Pumo!
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby karx11erx » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:31 am

Sirius,

I have been trying for hours and hours to fix the collision problems with your geometry models up to the point of being desperate about why it wouldn't work - until I finally discovered that you haven't linked many of these objects to the segments they are located in. To explain: Every segment does book keeping about all objects located in it (via a linked list), and every object in Descent has a "home" segment the linked list of which it is contained in. Geometrically, the object's center should be located inside the geometrical confines of that segment. Now what you apparently did was to add your geometry objects to some (arbitrary, convenient) segment and just move them to the desired position. What you should do now is for each such object to select the segment it will reside in and use the "Move" button in DLE-XP's object dialog to first link the object to that segment. Then move it to the proper position. It shouldn't matter if the object's center is a bit out of its home segment at the final position as long as it isn't too far out, but ideally you would make sure the object center is (at least barely) in the object's home segment.

Failing to handle it this way will result in Descent (not just D2X-XL) failing to properly handle collisions with this object, because Descent only looks at objects in segments close enough to the player (or the reference object, generally spoken).

This also means that you shouldn't create huge objects spanning lots of segments (like that mushroom shaped "altar"), but rather compose them of several separate geometry objects (e.g. one for the altar's pillar, the other for the table - at least). You also need to consider that D2X-XL will wrap round, elliptical and cylindrical shapes in cuboid hitboxes, so you may collide with such objects where you don't expect it to happen. In such a case, compose them of several sub-objects or several separate geometry objects.

Another thing that was a bit of a pain in the neck is your using cloaked objects as a base for your geometry objects (e.g. the cloaked diamond claw). Please change that to using opaque robots, or D2X-XL may occasionally render the geometry objects cloaked.

The best way to go really would be to use the modified version of your level (replace that altar, too) and only use geometry objects in inaccessible areas or where it really doesn't hurt (like the one in the ceiling at the bottom end of the long stairway). That means you could also keep the geometry object based pillars supporting the rotunda's roof (which I had unnecessarily replaced by geometry since I wasn't quite clear about whether you could enter the area around the rotunda through the pillars).

God, has this taken me time and nerves. :wallbash: It is for a good reason that DLE-XP's diagnosis function reports objects that are out of their home segments!
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby Sirius » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:18 pm

Doh... yeah, the reason they were like that was so I could position them accurately. I already have the means to do that properly though, so that shouldn't be such a problem now.

I think I was going to block off the bottom part of the top energy centre (beneath the plane of the top of the "table") but probably forgot to do that. Regardless, turning it into "normal" geometry is probably worthwhile.
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby karx11erx » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:41 pm

You could have positioned them just as accurately when moving them to their home segment first, couldn't you? ;)

Is there an energy center at the "altar"? I can't remember one there.
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby Sirius » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:57 pm

Unless it's been disabled ... the two spots with the loose yellow rocks are supposed to be energy centres.

The difficulty with positioning them from the correct home segment is that if the segment is irregular, it's difficult to know what the centre is, and thus how far I need to move the object in each direction. I think it could be done by calculating the arithmetic mean of all the segment's vertices, assuming DLE-XP positions them that way - that's a bit tedious though. Fortunately, checking and modifying the numbers is much quicker in the debug build I still have sitting around...
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby karx11erx » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:18 pm

Bummer - the collision handling problems weren't all due to misplaced objects ... :oops:
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby Sirius » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:06 am

I hope all this trouble is worth it ... if I'd known it'd get this bad before making the level, I don't think I'd have tried.
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby karx11erx » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:13 am

I'll finish replacing the geometry objects inside player accessible areas by true geometry, and then I'll find you and destroy you. :P

/me puts on black suit, sun shades and plugs the earphone into my ear

The energy centers are there, and replacing the "mushroom" with geometry shouldn't be too big a deal.

At least the entire hassle served to improve hitbox based collision handling.
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby Ben K » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:23 am

This also serves as a useful warning for what I shouldn't be doing in the single-player set. I'll save it for UE3.
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby karx11erx » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:31 am

Sirius,

I have a new modified version of your level with the "mushroom altar" built using regular geometry. Find it here: http://www.descent2.de/files/missions/3 ... t-dm-v2.7z

Actually that hadn't even been to hard. If you would send me the textures you have used for the geometry objects, I could even texture the pillars properly I have built into your level and applied place holder textures to.

All that would be left to you afterwards was to set the geometry objects' strength values in the level to zero (something I cannot do).

What you could also do is to extract some of the geometry I have added (by copying it as blocks) and use that to replace the critical geometry objects (the pillars supporting the rotunda's roof e.g. would not need to be replaced, as players cannot pass through them anyway and they are in a block level area).
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby Sirius » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:53 pm

I think those were kept with the models under mods/yearoftt/models. Hopefully I have time this week to fix some of this stuff ... next weekend I'll be away unfortunately.
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby karx11erx » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:47 pm

That folder doesn't seem to contain certain textures (e.g. the gray one used for the horizontal cross beams near the rotundra).

I have a YOTT version where I have kept all the "decorative" geometry objects and only replaced those in player accessible areas. Interested?
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby Sirius » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:31 am

Hmm, curious. Wonder what I did with that.

This alternative version sounds good though, probably the best bet for me to start working from.

P.S. ATrim1.tga on the top/bottom, CRACKS1.tga on the sides.
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Re: Year of the Tiger

Postby karx11erx » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:51 am

Yeah, I think I was wrong. Funny thing is the textures look different than those shown by the geometry models in level - probably because you had to convert them to palettized bmp for the polymodels?

I am having a finished "mixed" version of your level now. I will post it during the next few hours. With my last change hitbox based collision handling has become better again though. What it will not handle 100% properly due to the nature of its method is however collisions with curved areas.

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