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The 900 cube limit...

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:42 pm
by Hawkins
Greetings to the D2X-XL developers and community! (can't reallly understand why I have not been here earlier...)

So cutting to the chase. I have installed both D2X-XL and DXX-Rebirth on my system. Also, I use DLE-XP to make levels.

The problem: DXX-Rebirth has long been allowed to play levels with like 9000 cubes to accommodate Pumo Mines in that port. Naturally, it is expected that people may start making levels that might break the descent 1/2 limit of 800/900 cubes. However, it appears that DLE is enforcing this cube limit. In the past it wouldn't matter, cause I would make D2X-XL levels and then simply convert them back to Descent 2 format, using the converter. However, some months ago, the converter has been "improved" leading it to chop my cubes back to 900 upon conversion beyond build 1.8.69.

Suggestion: Knowing that the other most-played FOSS port of Descent supports 9000 cube levels, wouldn't it be better if DLE-XP only issued a warning about breaking the 900 cube limit, instead of enforcing it like that? It is important because, just like Pumo prefers Devil over DMB2/DLE-XP, the otherwise case is also probable; these two editors are quite different in handling, in essential ways. Devil issues warnings. Why not DLE?

Thanks in advance. And it's really really good to be here.

Re: The 900 cube limit...

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:55 pm
by karx11erx
Welcome here.

If people want to make levels with more than 900 segments, they will have to use D2X-XL. This is safe because D2X-XL levels are not recognized by other Descent versions, so they won't even try to load them. Expanding the standard level format in such a way will not offer that safety on the other side.

Re: The 900 cube limit...

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:01 pm
by Hawkins
That's what I am saying, there is no more need for safety under 900 cubes thanx to Rebirth. And like I said, Devil allows it, so at worse I can go though all the pain learning and getting used to devil to achieve the same result. Because Devil, which is the older Editor also used back in the day, where all we had is 900 cubes, just issues a warning only. All I am saying is why not make DLE enabling, at the cost of user error, just like Devil did even 15 years ago... Warning, instead of outright enforcing. If the 900 cub limit was dealt with an overflow warning back then, then why not now, where there is Rebirth even that supports it as well.

Re: The 900 cube limit...

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:16 pm
by karx11erx
I will not support Rebirth in any way nor do I encourage using it.

There is a long story behind it, beginning with my asking Zico for help with porting D2X-XL to Unix and him becoming very, very offensive as a result, and ending with Zico deliberately ruining my attempts to get the two communities together by my creating a common multiplayer networking protocol, him becoming offensive again.

If you want to know the details, just search this forum (you may want to start here).

Re: The 900 cube limit...

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:00 pm
by Hawkins
I really wish nothing to do with any bickering you two might have. As Free and Open Source Software goes, this is all crap if you allow me the expression. These ports aim at completely different as well as COMPLEMENTARY philosophies, which is why I have both. But that's not the topic here, I do not wish to make any kind of trouble. One last thing I've got to ask: would you please link me to a 1.8.69 build of DLE-XP? I haven't been able to find an online repository for it. Is there one? If not, then I' guess I must do it the hard way.

Thanks anyway, and no harm feelings right? I still believe you might be wrong about a few things, but it also still is just a personal opinion, so let's drop it. :)

Re: The 900 cube limit...

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:13 pm
by karx11erx
You probably don't know that you aren't talking to some half-baked uni student. I am IT pro with 25+ years business experience who will turn 50 in a few days.

What is it after my explanations that makes you think I would hand out old DLE-XP versions? I will do nothing to support Rebirth intended developments.

Apparently you have not understood my position (as outlined in the linked post) - probably because you couldn't be bothered to read it - nor what has led to it.

You probably still need to learn not to talk about "a few" things you don't really have a clue of.

This whole "different philosophies" talk is complete rubbish. D2X-XL can be easily configured to look and behave like vanilla Descent. You yourself are a proof for my position: You could build a huge D2X-XL mission using all the extra features D2X-XL offers, but instead you chose to cater to those who don't want to use it (the huge majority of them not because they cannot, but because they don't want to), overlooking the fact that the argument "everybody should be able to play it" doesn't count: Everybody is (or would be), because (as good as) everybody can run D2X-XL. Plus, there are already more than enough good standard missions available. So as far as I am concerned, if people want to play huge missions, they will have to use D2X-XL (or level authors will have to bear the pain of working with DEVIL).

Why the hell do people like you have to try and ride the same old, dead horse, when they could build 8000 segment levels with hires textures, hires models, smoke, lightning, and what not?

I guess it has more to do with where you feel at home (i.e. the Rebirth community) than with any rational reasons. Well, you could become an active member of the D2X-XL community and feel at home here soon, too.

That's what all this "different philosophies" nonsense boils down to, imvho.

Re: The 900 cube limit...

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:52 pm
by Hawkins
See, I didn't want to get to that but since we started: I DID read the post you gave me to the letter. And I try to be kind and calm and I keep it that way.

As an IT expert I don't understand why you are so FOSS-repelling? I am even suprized you have the D2X-XL source up, from what I saw. As a professional you must definitely know how FOSS works... and right now you 're literally shutting DLE source (and tree) in order to be non-enabling to other FOSS projects, i.e. you conduct cutthroat competition in a place where it's misfit. I may NOT be an IT expert like you (I mean that, I have respect to your knowledge and adhere to it), but I can see some simple things like this. You don't want it to be open source? Fine. It's your project, your call. But you are DEFINATELY no benefiting the Descent community with this attitude. Most people I know of, have both ports installed, since they are first and foremost two nice FOSS projects out there, and probably dismiss all the bickering and splice, that I gathered from the post you sent me, and some other ones. We just go past it.

So you wish DLE to be outright non-enabling for another FOSS project. You don't even profit from that so all you loose is user-base. Especially if it's not open source. Really let's drop this, I don't wanna get into this. I'll go with Devil now. Peace.

Why the hell do people like you have to try and ride the same old, dead horse, when they could build 8000 segment levels with hires textures, hires models, smoke, lightning, and what not?

Because we can, and want to. Specifically I need more cubes to facilitate some more detailed geometry, rather than make a bigger level. And I want that in Rebirth. That's just me. You don not wish to provide the format? It's no big deal. Your project once again. Maybe you should discard the original formats too, make only D2X-XL levels, so that no level ever will be made for Rebirth using DLE. As an IT non-expert, I fail to see the logic in that.

Re: The 900 cube limit...

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:46 pm
by karx11erx
You prove to be just as stubborn as I had already anticipated, so how do I make myself understandable to you?

Maybe you will understand this.

I am not the a'hole of Zico and a part of the Descent community who have despised and insulted me for years, ignoring my best (and free) efforts to get along with them and achieve something in the Descent community - mostly to their benefit, less to mine. In the light of that I couldn't care less about ideological applications of the FOSS term and philosophy when it is in fact abused to gain more personal advantage out of my work and will have the result of making D2X-XL a bit less of an attractive alternative.

One more word about the "different philosophies" of the two projects: Why is it then that Rebirth suddenly needs to support more than the standard amount of segments? It is so easy to see through this lame excuse.

I am not going into more details of an issue I have shed enough light on in the past here in this forum.

If you want to build > 900 segment levels, use DEVIL, or build for D2X-XL - you can have more detail there, too. I will not allow the tools I am maintaining and improving for years to be used for making Rebirth more attractive at the cost of D2X-XL because I can and want to, to pick up your reply (which actually only hides that you have no good factual reasons for your point and/or don't want to reveal personal agendas).

I think we have both made our points sufficiently clear and can leave it at that.